sorry Els I mean "Exact locations inscribed twice" as in connection :)

And I meant: which part of Great Wall would be inscribed twice?

Oh! I miss your quote. Yumen Pass http://www.travelchinaguide.com/china_great_wall/scene/gansu/yumenguan.htm

Interesting! Yes Yumen pass certainly seems to be regarded as having been a part of the "Great Wall" at some period - but

Is it part of the INSCRIBED Great Wall? A few years ago we had a discussion on this Forum concenring which parts of the (many) sections of the "Great Wall" (not of course a single wall but many walls built at many different times) are actually included in the inscription (or are regarded as being so by China AND UNESCO).

The Wall was inscribed back in 1987 before UNESCO became as pedantic as it has since in requiring the exact geographical details of inscriptions. Even now only 3 sections of the wall have been given maps on the UNESCO Web site - all dated 2012.

See here for our earlier discussions wihch attempted to discover which parts of the Walls were inscribed. The last post was 2011 and the majority of the searching took place in 2010 -
http://www.worldheritagesite.org/forums/index.php?action=vthread&forum=8&topic=1487&p age=0#msg3493

I don't believe it is. It also isn't recognized as such in the AB ev of the Chinese Silk Road, where the Longmen and Mogao Grottoes were explicitly named as 'already inscribed'.

Yes Yumen Pass maybe not part of Great Wall as its beyond Jiayuguan in Gansu.

At the beginning in my idea the case of Longmen and Mogao are that the whole two sites are part of Silk Road that why they are expressly stated, but not the whole Great Wall and only Yumen. When I read Grand Canal nomination, the site will include Pingjiang area of Suzhou which will include some of Suzhou Classical Gardens, but noting mention about this, so I presume that they will mention only if the whole site inscribe twice. But I may miss something as I read French version. I don't know if there is any more update on Great Wall info since solivagant and Bojboj last search.

Coincidentally, I also looked into this. I think it is likely that if you've visited the gardens you will have also walked by the Grand Canal areas in Suzhou. But I don't think the core zones overlap.

As have I !!! I am relying on the Grand Canal at Suzhou for my "tick" on the Grand Canal!
Unfortunately we don't yet have a really detailed map of the nominated areas of the Grand Canal.

As far as I can see only 2 of the gardens at Suzhou go "near" the Grand Canal
a. The Humble Adminsitrator's - the inscribed boundary of this definitely crosses over a waterway which connects to the Grand Canal - but i wouldn't have thought that it would have been inscribed as part of it
b. The Couple's Garden Retreat - this defintiely abuts (but doesn't cross) what is called in its map "the Canal" - but it is not the main stream which, through Suzhou as I understand, is the Wai Cheng River. It is just a few meters away under a bridge!

So at the moment I concur with Els that none of the inscirbed areas of the Suzhou Gardnes overlap the likely Grand Canal inscribed areas. But if you have seen these Gardens in Suzhou you are unlikely also not to have seen the "Grand Canal"!! Luckily we rented bikes in theose far off days of our visit to Suzhou in 1989 and cycled along and over the main canal on numerous occasions so we are ok there!

As I interpret it, it's the whole area of Pingjiang that is included in the Grand Canal nomination - i.e. the houses & steets along the canal that have been thoroughly renovated, and not just the waterway itself. It starts a bit south of the Humble Administrator's Garden. When I was there last year, renovation of the area was almost complete, and if I remember correctly there was even a little signpost highlighted the quality of the renovation - i.e. the kind of thing you'd post there just before applying for WH status...

From the ICOMOS evaluation page 111:
- Part 15 (JN-03), Suzhou comprises (1) a section of the canal in the marshes and then in the city, along with numerous urban branches (73 km); (2) Pan Gate on one of the branches of the canal; (3) Baodai Bridge; (4) the Shantang canal conservation zone; (5) the Pingjiang
quarter, (6) the former Wujiang towpath.

The Pingjiang area is under UNESCO rader for a while. This link by UNESCO Bangkok give some info about this quarter, and if whole area be inscribe then the couple retreat garden will be inscribe twice.

http://www.unescobkk.org/culture/wh/asia-pacific-heritage-awards/previous-heritage-aw ards-2000-2013/2005/award-winners/2005hm2/

Hmmm. Beginning to worry about my "tick". Visited the Suzhou gardens in 1997, when the Couple's Retreat Garden wasn't part of the WHS yet (so I did not visit).

Phew!! I am OK!! Have just re-read my diary from Aug 1989 and it all came flooding back - we took the overnight boat along the Grand Canal from Suzhou to Hangzhou. No doubts there then. Now I must have a go at looking at and scanning some of those faded diapositives!

Maybe you can get it from somewhere else, namely Beijing! A fair few others on the forum may get this "tick" on the back of this as well.



So I'm pretty confident it is this area here. The southern lake is translated as Shicha(i) Lake so seems to be the one in question. There is also a lock on the Western side leading to 0.5km of dried canal bed (running along Dongbanqiao Rd/ Beihe Hutong). Perhaps more importantly this batch of lakes is identified as the northern terminus of the Grand Canal.

From zooming in a lot on the map in p185 of ICOMOS evaluations for this year puts it in that area as well. So I think we have a winner, also seems I was on the right lines with my snuffling out a pre-emptive visit.

Shichai Lake and Hui Hai Lake link together there and are a pretty popular night spot (when I visited it felt like it was being developed as a sort of travellers hang out a la Khoa San Road with a night market and lots of slightly soulless Western bars being built or newly opened). It has also been famous for a fair while back for its restaurants selling Peking duck. It is also a short stroll from the Drum and Bell towers, and just north of the Forbidden City and Belhai park.

If all that is right and it gets inscribed we will also have a new connection of sites within walking distance: Temple of Heaven> Forbidden City> Grand Canal.

Hope that brings a few more to the visit counts of people :)

I had noticed it, but it's just outside of the Beihai Park / Drum & Bell Tower area that I visited . Could become a very frustrating miss (although maybe easy to pick-up during a future visit).

Oh well those are the worst. I have Namhansanseong for this year so I can sympathise, though I didn't get that close.

I posted a potential boundaries map on the other thread, in case that gives you a bit of a tick.