And a new topic for Cambodia....

Continued from the China/Laos posts.

My itinerary for Cambodia.

Tuesday, 6. November 2018 Pakse Siem Reap Flight 14:40:00-16:10
Will fly in from Laos. Hopefully I can catch a first glimpse in the evening.

Wednesday, 7. November 2018 Siem Reap
Will need to arrange a driver. Want to get to the far parts of Angkor that day.

Thursday, 8. November 2018 Siem Reap Tour
Want to go to Preah vihear by tour. Any recommendations?

Friday, 9. November 2018 Siem Reap Kampong Thom Bus
Plan is to use the day for site seeing in central Angkor. And then hop a bus direction Kampong Thorn.

Saturday, 10. November 2018 Kampong Thom Phnom Penh Bus
Visit Sambor Prei Kuk from Kampong Thorn and then continue to Phnom Penh.

Sunday, 11. November 2018 Phnom Penh 23:10
Visit the tentative sites of the area (Udong, Prei Nukor?)

Questions:
* Can Sambor Prei Kuk be done as a day trip from Phnom Penh?
* Is there anything worthwhile in Phnom Penh?
* Reason I am asking is that I would like to do the river cruise from Siem Reap to Phnom Penh and would need to make some space in my calendar...
* Is it hard to arrange transport to Preah vihear?

nfmungard

I have talked to a few locals offering customised tour from [url=https://www.toursbylocals.com ][/url]> I haven't booked them yet but already converse with three of them. You can customize the itinerary and the cost seems decent. If you can wait until 1st week of Oct to finalise the Siem Rep leg, I can provide some tips/recommendation.

My experience is eight years old now but just to give my feedback.


I visited in a pretty easy part day trip from Siem Reap if that is any use. Early morning coach, easily picked up a return ride on a moped at the turn off near Kampong Thom. And I managed to find a space on a busy bus heading back in the early afternoon. But if you are stopping off there on the way it should be pretty simple side trip to make.


Choeung Ek Genocide Memorial (aka the Killing Fields)
Cambodia's largest North Korean themed restaurant (in case you miss the second largest in Siem Reap.) :)


Just a heads up we had to abandon our plans to do a similar trip as water levels were low and that affected the time it would take.


I had a Khemer speaking friend that was able to arrange it fairly easily for me. I would imagine the infrastructure has improved enough that a day trip will be offered by a few places around town (a quick google brings up a few expensive options, but I'm sure there may be other options available around town). This TripAdvisor forum has public transport info, though it may not work as a day trip with the bus timings.

One thing I do remember is that the cost of the drive from the main road up to the temple was a pretty expensive km or so, but there aren't any other real options beyond a rather tiring, boring and potentially dangerous climb (there were mine clearing teams active all the way up when we visited, but then it was a semi active front line as well).


Siem Reap is really set up to cater for tourists, most things are available with a bit of asking around (and I would imagine that stretches well beyond finding a taxi and driver).
Give Angkor as much time as you can, it really is impressive. A decent chunk of a day to cover the main central parts Angkor Wat and Thom and the loop of temples around it is good. I would certainly recommend getting out to some of the outlying parts, Bantaey Srei shouldn't be missed and can easily be combined with a trip to Kbal Speen .

A lot of tour companies and hotels offer private car tour with driver to Sambor Prei Kuk, I did the full one day trip from PP in January, very easy.

https://www.phnompenhpost.com/national/two-sites-selected-unesco-world-natural-heritage-list

It concerns:
Phnom Tbeng Natural Heritage Park in Preah Vihear province
Mekong Anlong Kampi Irrawaddy dolphin conservation area spanning Kratie and Stung Treng provinces

Not on the T List yet.

Irrawaddy dolphins moving forward, but hard to tell how serious the nomination is and which year they are aiming at:
https://thediplomat.com/2022/12/cambodia-seeks-unesco-world-heritage-status-to-protect-a-mekong-biodiversity-hotspot/

I've just finished my second trip to Cambodia (16 years after the first one!). Reviews of 2 WHS and 3 TWHS will be published in the coming weeks. There are some pending Cambodia reviews by Frederik Dawson as well, so together they will result in an updated look at the country. Only waiting for that first Angkor Borei TWHS review (Frederik?).

Despite the hard times brought by Covid, Cambodia still is putting its bets on tourism. A new international airport is set to open near Siem Reap later this year. There were serious restoration and conservation activities going on at all sites that I visited. Most sites had few tourists, except for Angkor of course.

Itinerary
D1 - Arrival by plane from Kuala Lumpur. Overnight Phnom Penh.
D2 – Revisit Phnom Penh monuments including National Museum. Afternoon visit by Grab tuktuk to TWHS Choeung Ek Killing Fields. Overnight Phnom Penh.
D3 – Day trip to Oudong TWHS by shared taxi & tuktuk. Overnight Phnom Penh.
D4 – Minivan to Kampong Thom (3h). Tuktuk to Sambor Prei Kuk WHS. Overnight Kampong Thom.
D5 – Shared taxi (2.5h) to Siem Reap. Overnight Siem Reap.
D6 – Daytour with private driver to Preah Vihear WHS and Koh Ker TWHS. Overnight Siem Reap.
D7 – Revisit Angkor, focus on the more peripheral Preah Khan (with beautiful carvings) and the lake temple Neak Pean. Overnight Siem Reap.
D8 – To Banteay Chhmar TWHS by shared minivan to Sisophon (1.5h) and private taxi onwards (<1h). Overnight Banteay Chhmar.
D9 – Private taxi to Poipet border (2h). Cross into Thailand.

Some practicalities
* It may be my imagination but it seems that Cambodian riel are more commonly used nowadays than USD, also for larger purchases. They are better to withdraw from ATMs anyway, as you will get bills of 50,000 riel (~ 12 EUR) while dollars often come in impractical 100 USD bills.
* I had to get used to having to work for public transport again (it's a far cry from the logistical bliss that I was used to in Brazil). Best are the shared taxis, run by a mysterious underground network that all the locals seem to know about. Minivans, operated by postal and package delivery companies, drive between the cities and can be booked in advance online. Roads have significantly improved over the past years, so travel times are usually less than what you read online. For shorter distances, the app Grab works in Phnom Penh and Siem Reap.
* The overland border crossing Poipet-Aran was fairly easy (there has been a crackdown on corruption/bribery), though it still took about 1.5 hours to get through it all as many Thai tourists take this crossing as well. The main border road at Poipet is currently closed, you have to enter by making a loop around the buildings to the right (a bit far to walk, a moto-taxi brought me there for 1 USD). I wasn't able to find transport to Bangkok at the market right at the Thai side of border (which seemed to be an option before Covid but the tourism numbers haven't returned to that level yet), best is to take a tuktuk to the Aran main bus station (5km) where minibuses to the capital leave very frequently.

In his review of "Former M-13 prison/ Tuol Sleng Genocide Museum / Choeung Ek" GabLabCebu commented - "As for M-13, I had never even heard about it as an accessible tourist spot, so hopefully someone here can figure out a way to visit it as it could offer fresh perspectives to this serial nomination as an earlier prison of the Khmer Rouge". We also, way back in 1997, only visited Tuol Sleng and Choeung Ek, so I thought I would try to discover more - but the situation isn't clear!

a. The UNESCO T List description states "Name of institution: former M-13 prison. Location: Prei Chrao Village, Kbal Tek Commune, Tek Phos District, Kampong Chhnang province. Size: about 1ha. Historical period of interest: 1971-1975". I have been unable to discover, on Google Maps or elsewhere, the locations for either the village or the commune and don't know on what basis "our" coordinates were determined. They have been placed at somewhere described as "Green Farm 1 Khum Chaong Maong Cambodia" which is around 8kms from the town of Tek Phos......but the Satellite images and photos show nothing which could indicate the remains of a prison - just rows of fruit trees.

b. There is an article on the Web titled "Research Study on a Former Khmer Rouge Prison M-13". Unfortunately, despite being carried out by the Konrad Adenauer Stiftung and indicating that there is a German version available, I can only discover the Khmer language version. But it DOES contain a couple of maps!! The English intro clearly states "M-13, located in Kampong Speu province, was one of the most important prisons of the early Khmer Rouge. It was used to punish, torture, and kill many innocent Cambodians from 1971 to 1975." and the map confirms that the site being described is indeed in that Province - albeit right on the border with Kampong Chhnang province within which the UNESCO description places it (Tuek Phos is around 50kms away). The map shows a large area within a red boundary line which is way, way bigger than the "1ha" referred to in the UNESCO description. Photos in the article seem, however, to home in on a much smaller area with a title which translates as "Photographs taken from the site of the former Mon 13". But I am unable to locate it within the wider boundary and Google Maps provides no indications that I can discover.

c. Then there is this article in English from 2009 which includes these comments - "Lim Peth stands at the edge of a large pit he says was used to keep prisoners at the Khmer Rouge's M-13 prison in Kampong Speu" and "I was too young and too afraid to try to see this," said the 51-year-old charcoal maker, who returned to nearby Thmar Kup village after the Vietnamese ousted the Khmer Rouge in 1979." Unfortunately these are yet more locations which are not identifiable for certain!! There could of course be problems with spelling and multiple places with the same/similar names. A search on "Thmar Kup" however led me to this article which describes M-13 in some detail and places it near "Thmar Kup village, Amleang sub-district," i.e confirming the general location from the Konrad Adenauer Stiftung article! It also contains a number of toponyms which could be helpful - "Duch's office cum interrogation room was located 50 meters away from the Trapeang Chrap lake..." and "Due to prisoner unrest and revolt, the office was moved to Trapeang Chrap, Thma Kup village, Amleang sub-district, Thpong district, under the new name of "Security Office M-13," or simply "M-13". Google Maps doesn't recognise this lake but does have Thma Kup village at 11.767028, 104.372183 . However -it indicates nothing related to M-13 and neither is there an obvious lake nearby. It is however within the "red boundary line" of the Konrad Adenauer Stiftung article.

The Articles placing M13 in the Amleang district seem pretty reliable as they (including the one in Khmer) refer to the period 1971-75 and the notorious "Comrade Duch", the Khmer Rouge commander who set up M-13 and other locations But I am not sure where this leaves us regarding a choice between the UNESCO description location and the one near Amleang/Thma(r) Kup!!!

The UNESCO description also states - "M-13: Former early Khmer Rouge Prison and experimental site on detaining, torturing and killing including training of young prison guards by Duch. M-13 is one of the early prisons which the Khmer Rouge established before they gained control over the entire country in April 1975. Although there were other such prisons around the country, this appears to be the only one that has been identified and converted into a site of remembrance and learning. Although M-13 moved three times in the area, this site in Prei Chrao Village, was its location for the longest period. Duch, the head of M-13, moved to Phnom Penh and was later appointed as head of S-21 (known today as TSGM), and it is unknown whether M-13 continued to be operational 1975-1979."

Could it be that the T List entry relates to a different one of M-13's 3 different historical locations rather than the one near Amleang - whose location seems to be reasonably "certain" from the various articles and which would seem to be the most important - leaving the "UNESCO description" location unsupported by any back up evidence?? As yet I can't find out more..... over to others!!

According to wiki, the commune is: https://www.google.nl/maps/place/Kbal+Tuek,+Cambodja/@11.8853756,104.0499067,11z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m6!3m5!1s0x310ed9dd79057a33:0x5ca3b5c92bb79cd9!8m2!3d11.9489927!4d104.3230088!16s%2Fg%2F11gzpxplpz?entry=ttu


All Cambodian TWHS locations were delivered by meltwaterfalls, except for this TWHS. So probably I 'found' this, but can't remember how of course. Maybe we can get a bit closer to the truth now.

Right - so Kbal Tuok, whilst being in Kampong Chhnang province, is quite a long way from our current location for M-13. Using our map - Start at our current "dot".... go north west to Route 53 and then follow it West until you get to Phumi Krasang Doh Laeung ..... where the 53 turns south....... zoom right in where the road turns south and you will find Kbal Tuek.

I have discovered that "Prei Chrao Village" is normally spelled "Prey Chrov village" (a.k.a - Prey Chhrouv)
So - the spelling and address for the UNESCO description should be Prey Chrov Village, Kbal Tek Commune, Tek Phos District, Kampong Chhnang province"
But I cant find Prey Chrov (Prey Chhrouv) on a map - it should be on elevationmap.net ( https://elevationmap.net/prey-chhrouv-amleang-thpong-kh-1003246726 ) but its IP won't resolve.
However the post code and address for Prey Chrov IS available Prey Chrov, Amleang, Thpong, Kampong Speu: 05151 - see https://khm.postcodebase.com/node/4980
Note that this "Google address" includes Amleang even though it is across the province border - the same town as in the Konrad Adenauer Stiftung (KAS) article... and also close to Thmar Kup

I am concluding that
a. Our current dot is incorrect
b. The 2 different places in 2 different provinces referred to by UNESCO and KAS are the SAME - either it is situated directly on the river which forms the boundary between the 2 provinces or the Postal town is on one side whilst the location is on the other.

Once we accept that they are the same then the location of M-13 would seem to be "around" the town of Thma Kup (as per c in my previous post) which IS shown on Google maps at 11.767599, 104.371765

I have tried looking at the photo in the KAS article and trying to find the same location on Google Satellite view - e.g 11.772096, 104.372531 - both very similar on an ox bow of a river?? It is situated in the bottom RH corner of the KAS map. Note that it is very close to Thma Kup and is reached along a dead end road from the Kampong Speu side of the province boundary but is actually in Kampong Chhnang! If you use "What's here" you will find it uses Amleang!! But, on reflection it perhaps doesn't exactly match even if the river location is very similar? If it is around Thma Kup then it ought to be one or other of the ox bows made by the river within a few kms up or downstream?

Views??

Note also this description of what is left of the camp from https://factsanddetails.com/southeast-asia/Cambodia/sub5_2f/entry-3501.html - which confirms that we shouldn't expect to see a lot of buildings etc
"There are very rare cases, where a prison in the countryside (constructed only out of natural material without permanent buildings) has remained with visible traces after nearly 50 years. This site gives the unique chance to show that any prison (like the much better known S-21) has its pre-history, where guards were trained and the head of the prison invented and tested various methods of interrogation, torture and killing.
M-13 is located in the countryside. During the prison time no buildings were constructed. The prisoners were kept in pits, fenced by bamboo walls and the guards including Duch slept and worked under the trees. The traces of the pits are clearly visible and nothing has been planted or constructed at this site since 1975. Although everything that was built out of natural material has decayed the soil still shows the traces; objects from the prison time were found; and interviews, testimony and even publications from former inmates and guards exist. Due to its untouched character, the site's authenticity is considered to be high as corroborated in sworn testimony at the ECCC by surviving prisoners and guards well as in several written autobiographies
Location: Prei Chrao Village, Kbal Tek Commune, Tek Phos District, Kampong Chhnang provincel Size: about one hectare."

I've now moved the location on our map to that spot; at least it will be closer to the truth and whoever wants to visit can ask around there.

I will have a a bit of a look into this one now as well, though it seems we are close to a location anyway.

Just a quick note @els a link in your review is broken:


The (source) should point to this page, I think there is a stray . at the end of the link though
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/16/forty-years-after-genocide-cambodia-finds-complicated-truth-hard-to-bear

I have found it without doubt (if we accept the KAS article and photos as "gospel") - using Mapcarta, whose aerial photo is much sharper than Google's. it matches exactly the photo in the KAS article (apart from having been taken in a "greener" season) including the small isolated lake just to the North of the river... and the positioning of tracks and trees on both sides of the river/province border. It is a relatively short distance North East of Thma Kup whereas the previous location I identified as a "possible" yesterday was a similar distance NW.
Coordinates - 11.770076, 104.384406 (I have chosen a location on the Northern side of the river which, in the KAS photos, appears to have the most "on the ground" remains of pits etc as referred to above)

LOL! Two days of staring at maps for a third, minor location of a TWHS! Well done!