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	Solivagant Partaker	#226 \| Posted: 13 Aug 2023 15:58 \| Edited by: Solivagant
		Liam: no one knows precisely why their bid was knocked back Further to this...... I posed this Question to DCMS on July 17 - "I note that gov.uk was updated on July 4 with a page titled - "Consultation outcome - Government response to the UK Tentative List review". Previously, when UK's World Heritage Tentative List was updated the report of the body doing so was published in order to show the contenders and the logic by which conclusions were reached.. Is there no intention this time to publish the report of the "Independent Expert Panel" which evaluated the applications for inclusion on the UK's revised T List? If not, why not? Surely we are entitled to know which potential sites were covered and what the conclusions in each case were?" and received this answer dated July 28 from the "Ministerial Support Team" - "The 2022 to 2023 review took a more light-touch process than the 2012 review. This included releasing a brief summary, as you have seen, from the consultation outcome page, rather than publishing a lengthy document from the independent expert panel. Further information on the rationale for the sites included was published as part of the Press Announcement. Sites that were not included on the list received feedback directly on their applications. (My bold) Should you wish to discuss a potential world heritage site or related matter, or hear further to the details about the future UK approach to world heritage, as published in the consultation outcome, please contact the team at tentativelist@dcms.gov.uk." "Light-touch process" my a---!! For some reason they don't seem to want to publish the candidates and reasoning!!! I immediately placed an FOI request as follows - "Under the Freedom of Information Act, I would like to request the following information: For every site which took part in the recently concluded UK Tentative List Review (i.e both successful and unsuccessful candidates)- a. Copies of the "Expression of Interest" forms which had to be supplied by Friday 6 May 2022. b. Copies of the "Full Application" forms which had to be supplied by Friday 15 July 2022. c. The conclusions reached by the Independent Expert Panel which considered the applications as given to each of the applicants in whatever form is easiest for yourselves. The equivalent forms and information were made public for the previous 2011/12 T List review exercise and must be readily available for publication on this occasion too . I would like you to provide this information in PDF/Word or similar format by e-mail to the address of this request. Please do not hesitate to contact me on should any aspect of my request require clarification." They have officially acknowledged receipt of the "request" and have 20 "Working days" to reply - 10 have passed to date!. 10 years ago I did the same and successfully got the application forms made public - but at least then they had published a report showing the reasoning. We will see what happens this time. Another possibility is that they say it will cost me £xxx for them to do it - as they are entitled to claim. But all the documents already exist and there can't be many of them (I actually suspect very very few!!) so I would regard that as "stonewalling" and would contact my MP!!! If keeping the T List very short were indeed a reason for candidates not being included this time then that could have been a perfectly reasonable response....."We want to keep the list to within a 10 year nomination cycle....You were a good candidate... not quite as strong at the moment as the others because of XXXX... keep up the good work....etc etc"!!

	meltwaterfalls Partaker	#227 \| Posted: 28 Sep 2023 07:22
		The famous sycamore at Sycamore Gap on Hadrians Wall has been intentionally cut down overnight It's not quite the destruction of Palmyra or burning of Notre Dame but it is in the same league

	elsslots Admin	#228 \| Posted: 16 Oct 2023 13:25 \| Edited by: elsslots
		The UK's new T List finally has been published on the Unesco website. On it as expected the East Atlantic Flyway. We have discussed it before. It remains totally vague which components will be included - they've started by supplying only one coordinate, somewhere in the sea but fortunately still in British territorial waters. The prospective OUV statement also seems a work-in-progress.

	Colvin Partaker	#229 \| Posted: 16 Oct 2023 15:16
		Looks like I may have to make some visits to Lincolnshire, Norfolk, and Suffolk! A few intended sites were listed in this article from April, but it would be good to see confirmation for what is going to actually be included. The sites listed in April include: Blacktoft Sands RSPB reserve on the Humber in Yorkshire RSPB Frampton Marsh in Lincolnshire Blakeney National Nature Reserve in Norfolk RSPB Minsmere in Suffolk Wallasea Island in Essex

	meltwaterfalls Partaker	#230 \| Posted: 17 Oct 2023 07:34 \| Edited by: meltwaterfalls
		elsslots: It remains totally vague which components will be included - they've started by supplying only one coordinate, somewhere in the sea but fortunately still in British territorial waters. Solivagant turned up a useful map which seems to give a reasonable estimation of what will be included. Or if you want to avoid endless adverts and local newspaper paywalls there is another, slightly less detailed, version here. It broadly is every nature reserve on the east coast of England between Hull and Whitstable. Here is a map roughly with the main poiunts of the boundaries picked out co-ordinates: Site Break: Co-ordinate Humber Estuary (Western limit) Goole Boothferry Road Bridge : 53.72752043802812, -0.8902877392881897 Humber Estuary (Northern limit) Spurn National Nature Reserve : 53.615281758577936, 0.14074845236655456 Humber Estuary (Southern limit) Saltfleetby-Theddlethorpe Dunes National Nature Reserve : 53.38189057083303, 0.23015761562208104 The Wash (Northern limit) Gibraltar Point National Nature Reserve : 53.103924085916745, 0.3335698509881448 The Wash (Western limit) Moulton Marsh Nature Reserve : 52.887665497918675, -0.004853078218094182 The Wash (Southern limit) Bulldog Sand : 52.82058624701928, 0.36120125104237794 The Wash (Eastern limit) Salthouse Marshes : 52.956339950136694, 1.082460577016149 Breydon Water : 52.60450015492682, 1.6816482342148946 Suffolk Coast (Northern limit) Benacre National Nature Reserve : 52.38468290059429, 1.7012860252554711 Suffolk Coast - Dunwich Forest : 52.285114527021584, 1.6170697463730788 Suffolk Coast - RSPB Minsmere : 52.25059236531385, 1.6191407438438339 Suffolk Coast - Orford Ness National Nature Reserve : 52.0899498363006, 1.5547180914509597 Suffolk Coast - Kyson Hill : 52.0825284572056, 1.3097110711093989 Suffolk Coast - (Southern limit) Stour and Orwell Estuaries : 52.00836331431334, 1.231818696985659 Hamford Water National Nature Reserve : 51.88206622074619, 1.2430540878381948 Blackwater, Croach, Roach and Colne Estuaries (Northern limit) : 51.854362715133846, 0.9550608512823585 Blackwater, Croach, Roach and Colne Estuaries (Western limit) Gravel Pit : 51.731087997069785, 0.699489297521252 Blackwater, Croach, Roach and Colne Estuaries (Eastern limit) Dengie National Nature Reserve : 51.70208296355698, 0.9569119359377984 Blackwater, Croach, Roach and Colne Estuaries (South Eastern limit) Foulness Point : 51.61688220375362, 0.9505440587482575 Blackwater, Croach, Roach and Colne Estuaries (South Western limit) Leigh National Nature Reserve : 51.53649778690814, 0.6332684948193673 Thameside Nature Discovery Park : 51.50097525876993, 0.44345822128700546 South Thames Estuary and Marshes (Western limit) : 51.441943740961335, 0.4119481084936531 South Thames Estuary and Marshes (Eastern limit) : 51.453574390920714, 0.4859495589060458 Thames Estuary and Marshes (Western limit) : 51.46460304488357, 0.4559023410302655 Thames Estuary and Marshes (Eastern limit) Grain Coastal Park : 51.46312661404324, 0.7188509739868435 Medway Estuary : 51.41045180602191, 0.614304341789913 Elmley National Nature Reserve : 51.38087941025253, 0.7853843679957827 Oare Marshes Nature Reserve : 51.348828330025384, 0.8903870731386978 The Swale National Nature Reserve : 51.375877836512984, 0.9276377723994094 Southern limit Saxon Shore Way Seasalter : 51.34537715935603, 0.958934998368508

	elsslots Admin	#231 \| Posted: 17 Oct 2023 13:33
		meltwaterfalls: Here is a map Did you create it yourself, meltwaterfalls? Well done. I may copy it...

	meltwaterfalls Partaker	#232 \| Posted: 17 Oct 2023 14:34
		elsslots: Did you create it yourself, meltwaterfalls? Well done. I may copy it... Yep, it is a rough approximation based on the boundaries in the map Solivagant found, and UK nature reserve boundaries. As the full list of sites isn't published anywhere it is a bit of a guess, but i think I got all of the componant parts covered. Yeah feel free to use it, I'm already trying to work out if I have been to any of the sites by accident, but I think I have studiously avoided them on my trips to the East coast.

	Liam Partaker	#233 \| Posted: 17 Oct 2023 14:47
		meltwaterfalls: I'm already trying to work out if I have been to any of the sites by accident Thank heavens for my parents dragging me for a walk down Spurn Head as a boy because I don't think visiting Whitstable for fish & chips, Chatham for the Dockyard or Ipswich for a conference would count!

	elsslots Admin	#234 \| Posted: 19 Oct 2023 22:46
		meltwaterfalls: As the full list of sites isn't published anywhere it is a bit of a guess, but i think I got all of the componant parts covered. I've added them as well!

	Solivagant Partaker	#235 \| Posted: 20 Oct 2023 03:24 \| Edited by: Solivagant
		meltwaterfalls: As the full list of sites isn't published anywhere it is a bit of a guess, but i think I got all of the componant parts covered. Indeed - an excellent summary, but I noticed the following long list of elements on the World Heritage UK Web site. Whether (and, if so, by how much) these add to your list of main points is unclear. "The extent and boundary of the proposed Natural World Heritage Site (NWHS) is largely defined by a series of existing protected nature conservation areas, designated for their international importance, including 21 Special Protection Areas (SPAs) for avian interest, 21 Ramsar Convention Wetlands of International Importance and 19 Special Areas of Conservation (SACs) for habitats and non-avian species, plus six nationally designated Marine Conservation Zones (MCZs). These sites are also underpinned by other national designations such as Sites of Special Scientific Interest (SSSIs)." I can't decide whether to bother doing a review (Multiple reviews??) for this site. I guess it is similar to already inscribed coastal/wetland sites in NL, Korea and China in that it contains large stretches of rather non-descript country and very little in the way of easily viewable "highlights".... and, thinking about it, the same also applies to more esoteric coastal sites such as Banc d'Arguin in Mauritania! How to advise WHS travellers who want to tick off this T List site? Those who are really interested in Birds will no doubt choose the optimal time of year (April?) and head for e.g "RSPB Minsmere". A "problem" with that particular site is that it is perhaps more oriented towards UK "rarities" (Bittern, Bearded Tit, Marsh Harrier etc) rather than being a "flyway site" which is, after all the prime purpose of the T List entry. In that respect nearby Cley Marshes are possibly "better". Those only wanting a "quick tick" could get it simply by taking in the muddy views when crossing the "Goole-Boothferry Road Bridge" on the way to/from nearby York. What about the one closest/easiest to get to from London? I will bow to Meltwaterfalls' superior knowledge of London's transport system but could it be the "South Thames Estuary and Marshes" just a further stop on the line from Gravesend? Personally I would recommend following Liam's boyhood experience by going to "Spurn Head" - a wild and magical place on the edge of the World!! It doesn't meet the criteria for the "Takes 5 days to reach" Connection - but it will feel like it!! And make sure you don't get cut off by the tide.

	Jurre Partaker	#236 \| Posted: 11 Dec 2023 13:51
		The Stonehenge road saga continues: High Court to hear second challenge against Stonehenge road project

	Jurre Partaker	#237 \| Posted: 26 Dec 2023 04:25
		Blenheim Palace: World Heritage Site lights up for Christmas

	Colvin Partaker	#238 \| Posted: 18 Jan 2024 18:06 \| Edited by: Colvin
		Just got back from a weekend in Liverpool, and while there made a brief hop across the Mersey to Birkenhead. I realized I was going into my visit to Birkenhead Park with a bit of prejudice: I've visited Central Park many times, and am a fan of Olmsted's landscaping. I was also happy to see the US add Central Park onto its TWHS list a couple years ago. That said, I recognize Birkenhead's claim that their publicly funded park was an inspiration to Olmsted. Walking around Birkenhead Park last weekend, particularly around the lakes, I could see paths and vistas reminiscent of similar natural landscaping in Central Park. Birkenhead is smaller than Central Park, and in some sections it appears a little worn, but I found I really enjoyed my morning there. Much as the World Heritage Site list is packed full of cathedrals (both early examples and later apotheoses), I wonder whether there could be similar room on the list for parks. After Birkenhead Park, I stopped by Port Sunlight on my way to Chester, and can see why so many in the forum here have sung its praises. It's a very appealing planned community, and I think I'll return sometime when it is warmer. As Liam is from Cheshire, I have to comment that I'm really enjoying visits to his county. Between a stop in Nantwich after Jodrell Bank, and my visit to Chester last weekend, I've been really impressed with the amount of half-timbered buildings on display. I also really enjoyed learning more about Chester's Roman history on the walking tour I joined. Definitely a place I'd consider revisiting.

	Liam Partaker	#239 \| Posted: 19 Jan 2024 17:34
		Colvin I'm glad to hear you enjoyed your trip! I live very near to Chester and it is lovely (does better than York in Roman heritage I'd argue). If you do revisit and you like half-timbered buildings I'd recommend a visit to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Moreton_Hall in the SE of the county. I'm not convinced by Birkenhead Park, despite it being only streets away from where my wife grew up. I took some persuading on Port Sunlight but I now believe it would not have been massively out of place on the List, albeit not a magnificently strong site.

	Solivagant Partaker	#240 \| Posted: 12 Feb 2024 08:30 \| Edited by: Solivagant
		BINGO!!!! Some of you may remember that, way back in Mid July 2023, I made a "Freedom of Information" (FOI) request to the UK Department of Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) for information on who the applicants were for the revised UK Tentative List - as described here 7 MONTHS LATER I have a "result" after a Kafkaesque procedure involving a "partial rejection" ! This was a wonderful bureaucratic delaying technique because, when one then replies - "ok you say you can't give me my request (b) but could do the whole of (a) and part of (c). I accept that - so could you do it please?" it actually results in the entire process going back to the start again in the form a new request for only the reduced element!! One of the reasons given for not supplying a request was that there would be "150 pages and that this would involve excessive work load" - as if they would have to go to a photocopier rather than simply copy an existing PDF!!! So a re-request is needed with new references and documents and a restart of the "clock" - (i.e "responses within 20 working days"), targets which were never hit and there were no apologies for the excessive delays and failures (Are all UK Governmental bureaucrats "working" from home??). After 1 re-request and 2 appeals to a higher body (which themselves were painfully slow and bureaucratic!)....... I have today finally got a response containing useful information!!!! You really would think I had been asking for "State secrets"!!! Even these documents have large "redacted" sections to protect "personal data" i.e the names and titles of people in the organisations making the applications on the basis that they might be junior staff! I have been given information in the form of The "Short Application forms" of 19 T List candidates which were fully considered and the "Conclusions of the Independent Expert Panel" as given to each. The DCMS would not give me the list of those sites which "expressed interest" via a preliminary enquiry but were told they didn't justify a full consideration - this on the basis that those making the expression of interest had a "reasonable expectation of privacy"!!!!! Of the 19, of course only 5 were added to the Flow Country and Gracehill to create the current T List of 7 - leaving 12 disappointed applicants - some of which were a "surprise" and did not figure in any of our earlier discussions. Els - how best to provide the 2 documents I have received from the DCMS for access within this Forum topic? As far as I know they have not uploaded them to their Web site (as they did for the documents involved in my similar request for the T List 10 years earlier)

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